Mikhail Khodorkovsky Interviewed on Gazeta.ru

26 Jun 2009
Gazeta.ru

Translated from the piece originally published on Gazeta.ru and posted with permission.

Click here for the original Russian interview, or here for Gazeta.ru's English translation.

From the defense lawyers of Mikhail Khodorkovsky:

We would like to underline that, by stating Mikhail Khodorkovsky's position for publication in the media, we do it not only because our defendant, as with any Russian citizen, has a right to free speech and cannot be forced or refused the exercising of this right (article 29 of the Russian Constitution). We also do so because this position is directly related to the accusations faced by Mr. Khodorkovsky and constitutes an irrevocable part of his defense. We also firmly believe that by being a part of public discussion, our client is provided with an additional and necessary guarantee of his security.

Mikhail Khodorkovsky is then able to answer questions that are not related to the accusations once he receives them from the media via the administration of the pre-trial detention center.

In addition, Mikhail Khodorkovsky asked us to tell readers the following:
First of all, he is very grateful to everyone who congratulated him on his birthday, because it is especially pleasant to receive such messages in jail. He sends his particularly deep gratitude to ex-YUKOS employees who have also sent their congratulations.

Secondly, he would like to apologize to those of his supporters to whom he could not reply due to his current situation, as his ability to communicate directly is now limited. In his articles Mr. Khodorkovsky writes about everything that he considers well thought over, however he does not make a claim for the ultimate truth. Sometimes he intentionally writes provocative ideas to stimulate public debate.

Third, Mikhail Khodorkovsky is honest about not being able to give simple answers to all possible questions in existence - he is not a prophet and not even a politician.

Finally, Mikhail Khodorkovsky only speaks to those of his multiple supporters and opponents who are interested in his point of view. He asks all others not to worry and keep cool.

What is your attitude towards privatization in general and YUKOS privatization in particular?

I do not think privatization was fair in the form it took place in Russia. I wrote about it in my article "Crisis of Liberalism in Russia."

The majority of our citizens were not ready to use the opportunities that privatization presented, and the state did not compensate the objective problem with any mechanism like they did, for example, in the Czech Republic.

By 1995, in contrast to many of my peers, I had a rather good education (technical, economical, legal), eight years of work experience in business, and money that I was able to save during those years. Therefore, when privatization started, I had objective advantages, and I used them. Should I have pursued buying YUKOS? I was 32 years old and an entrepreneur who saw what they call in English ‘an opportunity.'

I saw the opportunity of a gigantic gain that was connected to a huge risk. On one balance pan of the scale was everything that our team had earned in the past 10 years, plus the obligations before the banks that we would now have to be responsible for, plus the elections, after which everything could be taken away from us, plus 3 billion US dollars of YUKOS debt before federal budget, employees, suppliers, and declining oil production. On the other pan was the unique workforce and gigantic business whose cost would mount after its recovery.

I decided to take the risk and have never felt sorry for that decision afterwards. These seven years in YUKOS could very well be one of the main achievements in my life. By 2003 YUKOS was thought by many to be the best Russian oil company.

Have you created anything new in addition to what you inherited from the USSR?

I came to a company that produced 40 million tons of oil a year and its production was falling. If we did nothing about it, by 2003 the company would have produced around 20 million tons. But in reality by 2004 the oil production had grown to 81 million tons, meaning the company was renovated by three thirds.

It is enough to name just a few achievements out of those that make our team proud: the launch of the industrial development of Priobskoye oil field situated on the right bank of the Ob river, the launch of Eastern Siberian oil fields, and the recovery of oil potential in Samara region...

It may sound quite amusing now, but in 2003, Vladimir Putin publically praised us for these successes.

How can you explain impressive YUKOS production figures?

I am certain that all Russian companies had great potential, and my team managed to unlock this potential at YUKOS. Since 1987, we introduced information technology and scientific innovations in various industrial facilities. Everyone in my team had degrees in either engineering and business or engineering and computer science.

And we found out that from a technical standpoint, the Russian oil industry was lacking precisely this: large-scale entrenchment of know-how that was widely used in other countries and based on computer modelling. Plus of course, economic evaluation of each technological step.

Our computer modelling center was the first of its kind in Russia. By the way, German Gref and Alexey Kudrin both visited it at some point.

The ‘Center for Research and Development' was also the first R&D institution in the Russian oil industry created after the fall of the Soviet Union and aimed precisely at the introduction of innovative developments in the industry.

Therefore, everything was quite simple: the right specialists in the right time and right place produce the right result.

Have you employed ‘barbarian' methods of oil production?

I would say that this is an openly propagandist and unprofessional statement. A professional would evaluate the existing ORF (Oil Recovery Factor) and compare it against the projected one. During all the years of my work, ORF at YUKOS oil fields was always growing. And this is the main indicator of production quality. After Rosneft came to YUKOS production facilities, it had never criticized the indicators we achieved, although, I would assume, it would have liked to be able to do that. And this is the fact. All the rest is merely propaganda.

What is oil well fluid and what was it invented for?

Oil well fluid was "invented" by Mother Nature herself. The technology of oil production was invented by the previous generation of oilmen. In Russia and other countries the fluid that comes out of the wells consists of 30% oil (on average), and 70% water, gas, salt, and other ‘stuff.' This mixture's technical term is ‘hydrocarbonic raw material' or ‘oil well fluid.' After the preparation process that involves impressive technological equipment and thousands of professionals, this ‘raw material' turns into ‘oil' that meets the state imposed standard. It is then supplied to the consumer. If one calls himself an oilman, but insists that the fluid which comes from Russian oil wells is pure oil - this person is a cheat.

Have you optimized your taxes?

Yes, I have. And once more: yes! As would any head of any company, I tried to decrease its tax burden strictly within the legal framework and with minimal risks for my company. Should I have behaved differently, we would have lost to the competition.

Average tax burden in the industry was around 30-35% of revenues when the price of oil was around 20 US dollars per barrel. The tax payments were carefully monitored by tax authorities. I personally reported to the Ministerial commission, headed by the Minister. Rosneft, Sibneft (which is now called Gazpromneft) and others - they all worked similarly with very close figures on taxes that could differ by just 2%.

Have you been stealing money?

No, I have not. Never. I could earn money perfectly well and always considered stealing to be not just morally, but strategically wrong. The main source of income for an owner of a big private company is the company's capitalization growth. Stealing destroys value, replacing it with small income and large problems. Real owners do not steal. It does not make sense. Therefore the state property in the USSR and even in Stalin's times was the symbol of bad management, theft and corruption. Despite all attempts to hide this fact, it is very difficult to change human nature.

Where did you take your first money from?

I am not at all ashamed of my first source of income.

Since 1987, my partners and I had been selling computers that had been brought to the USSR by people returning from long-term business trips abroad. Upon returning from foreign countries these people brought personal computers with them, sold them to us, and we installed Russian software (which we, by the way, developed ourselves) and additional hardware that our clients required. That was how we earned our first "big" money. The price of one computer was 40,000 roubles. We sold more than 5,000 of them. For returnees it was more profitable than engaging in the more complicated business of importing cars or video-tape recorders. Why did a state-funded program aimed at importing computers not exist? Because of the opposition constituted by our local producers, whose "coffin-like" machines even at that time had been dozens of years behind.

Is it true that all shares owned by Khodorkovsky were transferred to Rothschild?

No, it is not true. Rothschild has not received any shares. After my arrest I lost the right to give orders in regard to the control stake. This stake was automatically transferred to my partners. This is the standard asset protection procedure: once they become hostages, the owners lose the right to give orders in regard of their property.

What can YUKOS minority shareholders hope for?

According to the law, if Platon and I are found guilty in embezzling all oil from YUKOS, then all the taxes and all YUKOS property will have to be retrieved and returned to the shareholders. It is around 40 billion US dollars, maybe more. But I doubt that anyone will give up on any of these assets. Mr. Gerashenko once described this situation with great precision. At the same time, I am deeply convinced of the decency of YUKOS top-managers and have no doubt that all income they receive after selling the company's foreign assets, will be distributed among all shareholders upon completion of the necessary legal procedures.

Do you believe in this Court and in an independent judiciary in Russia in general?

My fate is not determined in the Court. This is clearly understood by everyone. Should the judiciary in Russia be independent, my trial would have stopped without even beginning.

However, I believe that Russia will have an independent judiciary! It is absolutely imperative - if we want to preserve our country, create an innovative economy by means of entrepreneurial energy, and be respected and trusted globally. But to believe in it is not enough. Each and every one of us and the judges themselves must constantly and persistently help to move the system in this direction. Let this movement be by a mere millimetre at a time, let us sacrifice something for it. But the reward will be a quiet conscience. And this is worth sacrifices.

Do you feel sorry about anything?

I suppose I should not have started within industry. Instead, I should have been engaged in building democratic institutions, and encouraging a wide public consensus on the issue of private property.

Yes, I have misunderstood certain things. But a man changes with age. I had a revelation when I reached 37 years of age, in 2000. I made many mistakes. And I tried to radically change my life. I created Open Russia, and the Federation of Internet Education. I made an effort to seriously help the political system to develop. Not everything has worked out, but still...

Could you have spent your 46 years better?

Perhaps I could. This is not for me to decide. My role is to live and correct my mistakes. For as long as God will give me.